Potential orders for 18 inch escoz replica wheels

[COZZFATHER]

I did Google his trading name when it all started to be to good couldn't find itit was nice while it lasted

i did and i did find it as the other post sugests Drew

[georgie1]

i did and i did find it as the other post sugests Drew

[bestall]

Yes don't get pissed off. This is a forum after all and everyone does have the right to their own opinion. If you had been on here years then nobody would have batted an eye lid.

I think if you are genuine and I'm now guessing you might be then just supply the Guys a few more bits of information to put their minds at ease.

What testing will be done on the wheels and what manufacturing spec will they be working to??

Would the wheels come with a Certificate of conformity and material cert?

[Ben Purnell]

There is no malice or no will to not let you do this on here.

People need to be satisfied that when handing that sort of money over that they will get what they pay for and they're a top quality, there are plenty of people in this world that would quite happily take the money and run and I'm not by any means suggesting you would, but how do we know?
The only reference we have to go on is the way you have conducted yourself in the 12 posts to date and what information is about on the internet, to be honest from what I've seen of your replies you seem genuine and just want to help others out. That is highly commendable but in my opinion I would still be a little cautious of sending that money over.

As cozzfather mentions if others could vouch for you and you had been on here a bit longer, I'm sure these doubts wouldn't be there.

I believe you're an Owner so get a picture up as we all love a good

[COZZFATHER]

I bet the eBay vendors flogging knock off Audi rs,BMW CSL,amg merc wheels etc etc @ £399 a set don't get asked for tuv certificates

[rscosworthman]

Yes don't get pissed off

No worries - I'm not - just confused by people asking me for payment details, and when you give them, they think you're a criminal. As said before, I don't need the money, it was just for securing your 1 out of 30, that's all. Let's forget it.

Let's get into the co-creation vibe here, starting with the question whether anyone knows someone with 18 inches who could be seduced to go to a nearby 3D scanning company to have the wheel scanned. All he needs is a jackstand and one hour tops. I can cover for the cost.

[Jase]

Yeah, sarcasm now but not so much when the fuckers disintegrate leaving your car in a mess, and your right, I doubt the Cowboys selling those VAG reps don't get asked for TUV certificates, but I wouldn't buy them either and the Internet is full of pictures of failed replica wheels as you rightly point out.

I worked in Florida for 2 years, working for an English company with manufacturing in China, I can assure you that our man is absolutely right and that the Chinese will reproduce anything you place in front of them, but the quality is at best questionable.

Hey look, unlike most, I DONT THINK HES TRYING TO RIP ANYONE OFF, in fact I'd happily pay £2000 for a set if they were tested and guaranteed or even had a track record, but if you want to put wheels on cars worth upwards of 20k, wheels that literally have been made by Fred in a shed, then that's up to you guys, but I think you need your heads looking at.

Mods, please feel free to delete this if you don't agree.

[Ben Purnell]

it is up to people to make their own mind up, those that wanted to send payment clearly thought it was safe to do so, but I think as mods and users of the forum we do have a duty to try and protect people and share concerns/opinions if we have them (whether they maybe right or wrong, after all that is what a forum is about).

Don't give up its nothing personal and I'm sure no one thinks you're a criminal, I hope someone can come forward and supply a wheel for you.

[rscosworthman]

Ok guys - I'm starting to see this as a challenge now: IMHO China can produce any quality we want, and for sure higher quality than Ford did 20 years ago. It's just about knowing how to cooperate with them, and guess what: I married one. If that isn't about cooperation, I don't know...

Ok, let's get to the point, these are my findings of yesterday and this morning:

• First of, if I have or my company has these things produced in China, I'm personally (or via my company) responsible for their quality: believe me - I don't want any of my broken rims killing dogs, grandmothers and other things.
• On a more positive note: wheels are not difficult. Believe me, as a M.Sc. in Aerospace Engineering, I have done much more difficult stuff than a simple wheel. Due to the limited friction a tire can hold, the maximum amount of force a wheel needs to withstand is about the same as the weight of the car on that particular wheel. About 750LB per wheel vertically when cruising, or max 1500LB horizontally and vertically on your outer wheels when you are doing 2G down in the foxhole at the nurburgring and decide to brake VERY hard for some dubious reason. In that very extreme example, the amount of torque is limited to 9inch x 1500LB = about 1100 foot pounds. This sounds like a lot, but actually it isn't for how a wheel is being constructed. I'm guessing that the wheel can easily withstand 3500 foot pounds of torque and 4500LB of force at the very least before breaking.
• In order to check this, I will make a FEM model of the wheel before the mould is being made. This FEM model can accurately calculate the maximum forces/torques the wheel can have before breaking. Because people are tuning escos to 800bhp and beyond, I will go for a 3x safety factor here (instead of the regular 2x in the automotive industry).
• I researched the possibility to get TüV approval. To be honest, seems like a nightmare and paying for a lot of tickets back and forth to China to get the 'process right'. If I wanted to be in the wheel business the rest of my life it would be something else, but for now, let's skip this option. Wolfrace got through this process successfully as one of the first aftermarket providers, I'm happy for them. At the end, even TüV will not guarantee the quality of each individual wheel, only that the process went well.
• Then there are several alternative options to DO research the quality of each individual wheel after it has been produced in PRC: ultrasonic, radiographic, eddy current etc. I will contact a TüV approved testing company in NL to ask them what the possibilities are here and the cost.
• OZ wheels are using Low Pressure Die Casting (LPDC) and G-AlSi10Cu and G-AlSi7Mg alloys. I will probably use the same techniques and alloys as OZ.

Of course, the tests and models will increase the price per set easily by 100-200 GBP - but given the concerns of some people, I assume it's worth the money. We're still on a target price of 700-800 per set then.

Love to hear your comments/constructive feedback/ideas!

[jsa]

Well you talk the talk, now if you can get the prc to walk the walk, I'm thinking this will work out.

How are you going to be certain prc uses the primary elements you specify,
not just coke cans and datsuns ?

What post heat treatment ?

What about porosity, even s&j/cosworth have issues with that ?

How about rim balance ?

Concentricy & runout ?

[cossey man75]

If you can get them put me down for a set

[SAGO]

Ok guys - I'm starting to see this as a challenge now: IMHO China can produce any quality we want, and for sure higher quality than Ford did 20 years ago. It's just about knowing how to cooperate with them, and guess what: I married one. If that isn't about cooperation, I don't know...



Ok, let's get to the point, these are my findings of yesterday and this morning:

• First of, if I have or my company has these things produced in China, I'm personally (or via my company) responsible for their quality: believe me - I don't want any of my broken rims killing dogs, grandmothers and other things.
• On a more positive note: wheels are not difficult. Believe me, as a M.Sc. in Aerospace Engineering, I have done much more difficult stuff than a simple wheel. Due to the limited friction a tire can hold, the maximum amount of force a wheel needs to withstand is about the same as the weight of the car on that particular wheel. About 750LB per wheel vertically when cruising, or max 1500LB horizontally and vertically on your outer wheels when you are doing 2G down in the foxhole at the nurburgring and decide to brake VERY hard for some dubious reason. In that very extreme example, the amount of torque is limited to 9inch x 1500LB = about 1100 foot pounds. This sounds like a lot, but actually it isn't for how a wheel is being constructed. I'm guessing that the wheel can easily withstand 3500 foot pounds of torque and 4500LB of force at the very least before breaking.
• In order to check this, I will make a FEM model of the wheel before the mould is being made. This FEM model can accurately calculate the maximum forces/torques the wheel can have before breaking. Because people are tuning escos to 800bhp and beyond, I will go for a 3x safety factor here (instead of the regular 2x in the automotive industry).
• I researched the possibility to get TüV approval. To be honest, seems like a nightmare and paying for a lot of tickets back and forth to China to get the 'process right'. If I wanted to be in the wheel business the rest of my life it would be something else, but for now, let's skip this option. Wolfrace got through this process successfully as one of the first aftermarket providers, I'm happy for them. At the end, even TüV will not guarantee the quality of each individual wheel, only that the process went well.
• Then there are several alternative options to DO research the quality of each individual wheel after it has been produced in PRC: ultrasonic, radiographic, eddy current etc. I will contact a TüV approved testing company in NL to ask them what the possibilities are here and the cost.
• OZ wheels are using Low Pressure Die Casting (LPDC) and G-AlSi10Cu and G-AlSi7Mg alloys. I will probably use the same techniques and alloys as OZ.

Of course, the tests and models will increase the price per set easily by 100-200 GBP - but given the concerns of some people, I assume it's worth the money. We're still on a target price of 700-800 per set then.

Love to hear your comments/constructive feedback/ideas!

[rscosworthman]

... now if you can get the prc to walk the walk, I'm thinking this will work out.

Yeah right - that's exactly the challenge here. As a note that is relevant for all answers below - a friend of mine who works for Ford in Lommel is trying to get hold of the original specs of the wheels internally. Lets see if he succeeds, would help a lot.

You ask the right questions, and as you can see below I haven't got the answer to all of them yet, but I will need to before production can start.

How are you going to be certain prc uses the primary elements you specify,
not just coke cans and datsuns ?

These things can by tested. My wife (M.Sc. engineering) and a colleague (PhD engineering) will go to Hangzhou anyway end of this summer and they can have a lot checked, also which alloy is used.

What post heat treatment ?

Very good question. The OZ alloy I mentioned before is also referred to as LM25 or Thixo. For people who want to see more, click here. As is indicated on this website, both strength and hardness can be increased by heat treatment. My FEM model will turn out whether this is really necessary, but hey, it costs little more and why not just have it done. See here for a typical T6 heat treatment process which would be sufficient for the wheels.

What about porosity, even s&j/cosworth have issues with that ?

Again, very good point. Porosity is one the main defects in castings - read more about it here. This is simply put something the Chinese should just do right, otherwise they don't get their money. In the wiki link several testing methods are shown - I still have to find out which is best and most 'portable' for my wife to do when she is in China.

How about rim balance ?
Concentricy & runout ?

Both good points. On all dimensions I will put tolerances. Hopefully we get the original ones from my Ford friend at Lommel. Otherwise we will come up with some reasonable numbers. In any case they should be checked afterwards before the Chinese put the 120 wheels in the container to the UK.

Thanks all very relevant points, this helps a lot to get my 'todo & check lists' exhaustive! Keep it coming!

[Barry at Comp]

Are these a Rep of the Original 8x16 Ford rim ... but in 18"

[Dave]

Yes Barry, but there's talk of them being available in 9" too

Is this something you could help with?